Comment/Question:
If the gifts are given to the whole Church to profit therefrom, and most of them are in the denominations today, how are we to benefit from these gifts when we who are gathered to the Lord’s name have been told not to go to the churches where they are?
Answer:
Fellowship with denominational church order has been addressed in the first volume of “Questions.” It was pointed out there that saints gathered to the Lord’s name attending church services in the denominations is:
Hypocritical because we identify ourselves with an unscriptural church position that we protest against.
Putting our sanction on the unscriptural order in the church denominations.
To lose our power as witnesses of the truth of Scriptural assembly order.
To associate the Lord’s table with the unscriptural order in the churches.
To put ourselves in danger of getting drawn away into the church denominations.
The question of being taught by the gifted men in the church denominations was not touched on at that time and deserves attention here.
Should We Disobey the Truth to Gain Truth?
God has given “gifts” to the Church for the perfecting of the saints with a view of them supporting the truth by walking in it and helping others understand it (Eph. 4:11-1411And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:11‑14)). There is no question that most of these gifts in the body of Christ today are in the various denominational fellowships in Christendom. The question is, can those who have a gift for teaching and preaching in the churches give us spiritual food, and should we go there to be fed by them?
First of all, if the Lord has led us to separate from the confusion and ecclesiastical error in the “great house” (2 Tim. 2:19-2119Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2 Timothy 2:19‑21)), then surely He wouldn’t turn around and tell us to go back into it for fellowship and spiritual food. It is clear, therefore, that those who have fled to a remnant position in the house of God, being gathered to Lord’s name (2 Tim. 2:2222Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. (2 Timothy 2:22)), are to remain in the place to which He has called them. If the Lord has called us to this separated position He will sustain us there. The advice that Boaz gave to Ruth was, “Hearest thou not, my daughter? Go not to glean in another field, neither go from hence, but abide here fast by my maidens” (Ruth 2:88Then said Boaz unto Ruth, Hearest thou not, my daughter? Go not to glean in another field, neither go from hence, but abide here fast by my maidens: (Ruth 2:8)). This is good advice for us. It simply cannot be that the Lord would have us to go into something that He has called us out of. Surely, we don’t think that we should give up a principle of truth in order to gain truth. Paul said that if he returned to that which God had called him out of, it would make him “a transgressor” (Gal. 2:1818For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (Galatians 2:18)).
The enemy of our souls would like us to compromise, in some way, just as Sanballat and Geshem tried to get Nehemiah to “meet together in one of the villages in the plain of Ono” (Neh. 6:22That Sanballat and Geshem sent unto me, saying, Come, let us meet together in some one of the villages in the plain of Ono. But they thought to do me mischief. (Nehemiah 6:2)). Nehemiah answered, “I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down” (Neh. 6:33And I sent messengers unto them, saying, I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down: why should the work cease, whilst I leave it, and come down to you? (Nehemiah 6:3)). We need to see that supporting the truth of gathering by walking in it and teaching it is a “great work” that we can do for the Lord. Just as Nehemiah and those with him built the wall of the divine center in Old Testament times (Jerusalem), we can be engaged in supporting the truth of God’s gathering center in Christianity. If someone tries to take us away from it, we need to reply in the same manner as Nehemiah. It may not look like much of a work for God, but it is truly something that He values. The Lord commended the Philadelphians in their effort to maintain the testimony that He had “opened” for them. Let us be encouraged to continue in this work.
The enemy will not give up in his attempt to get us to compromise our position—just like Sanballat and Geshem sent to Nehemiah “four times after this sort,” and then later a “fifth time” (Neh. 6:4-54Yet they sent unto me four times after this sort; and I answered them after the same manner. 5Then sent Sanballat his servant unto me in like manner the fifth time with an open letter in his hand; (Nehemiah 6:4‑5)). It is sad that some of our younger brethren do not see value in the truth of gathering, nor does it seem that they are established in the principles of Scripture to be able to withstand the overtures of the enemy, and thus, they get drawn into the church denominations.
We are not saying that the gifted teachers and preachers in the churches couldn’t give a person spiritual food, but that we would not want to violate our consciences and go from the position to which the Lord has led us. Another illustration from the Old Testament emphasizes this point. In the wilderness Moses separated the tabernacle to a place “without the camp” because of the corruption in the camp (Ex. 33:77And Moses took the tabernacle, and pitched it without the camp, afar off from the camp, and called it the Tabernacle of the congregation. And it came to pass, that every one which sought the Lord went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp. (Exodus 33:7)). Then some time later, he “gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.” But Joshua noticed that two of the men didn’t leave the camp—Eldad and Medad. They continued to prophesy there, and the people in the camp heard it (Num. 11:24-2624And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. (Numbers 11:24‑26)). Was it the right place for these two men to be, since they had been called out of the camp? Did it mean that Joshua and others should go back into the camp because those two were there? Perhaps if Joshua and others did go into the camp and heard Eldad and Medad, they may have been helped by something in their ministry—but a higher calling had precedence over them.
Joshua wanted Moses to forbid the men to prophesy in the camp, but Moses said, “Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them” (Num. 11:27-2927And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. 28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. 29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! (Numbers 11:27‑29)). Similarly, we leave every one of the gifted men in the denominations to minister where they think they should. Scripture says, “To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not” (Lam. 3:3636To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. (Lamentations 3:36)). But this does not mean that we should join them when we’ve been called to separate to a place where we are gathered to the Lord’s name.
Do They Have the Truth to Give?
Another point that needs to be considered here is that gift and knowledge are two different things. Do these gifted men in the church denominations understand the Christian revelation of the truth so as to be able to give it to us? We realize that what we have to say next could come across as arrogant and bigoted. We do not mean to give a wrong impression in any way—as if the gathered saints are the only ones who have the truth—but the question does need to be asked. Surely, they have some truth, but do they have the truth in its right order? If they don’t know the truth, would they be able to give it to us? They may very well have a diploma from some well-known theological seminary, but that does not necessarily mean that they know the truth. We do not question whether these men have a spiritual gift, nor do we question their sincerity and personal godliness.
We have no intention of being offensive, but to make our point clearer, let’s look for a moment at some of the major Bible themes with this in mind:
Ecclesiology (Church doctrine and practise)
Could we go to a Christian denominational church to learn the truth of the assembly? Could they teach us how the Church should meet together for worship and ministry according to the Scriptures? It is highly unlikely. Even if those who preach and teach in those places knew of the Scriptural order for a local assembly, they surely wouldn’t teach it, because it would condemn the very position that they are in. We conclude, therefore, that we would not get help on assembly truth in the denominations.
Eschatology (Prophetic truth)
Could we go to a denominational church to learn the truth of prophecy? Perhaps there would be some basic things that the gifted preachers and teachers could give a person. But in all honesty, we do not know of one such Pastor or Minister who has the order of prophetic events close to the Scriptural order. Errors—from having Russia attack Israel at the beginning (or near the middle) of the seven-year Tribulation, to who the Antichrist is, and the order of judgments that will fall at the end of the Great Tribulation, etc.—they are generally in a fog as to these major tenets of prophecy. Would they know what the Indignation is? Or what the Consumption is? Or what the two attacks of the Assyrian are? Even simple things such as to the Lord’s coming; many are not sure whether the Church will go through the seven-year Tribulation or be taken out beforehand—some think that it will be raptured in the middle! If a person is not clear on these things, there will be other related topics in prophecy that will not be understood either. It is a bit like doing a jig-saw puzzle; if we put a piece in place that doesn’t belong there, then there will be another piece that will not fit somewhere else. We are quite sure, therefore, that we wouldn’t get accurate teaching in the way of prophetic truth from the Pastors and Ministers in mainstream Christianity.
Soteriology (Salvation truth and its related blessings)
Can the Pastors and Ministers in the denominational churches teach us about salvation and its related blessings? We can thankfully say that they do preach the gospel in the evangelical churches in Christendom. But taking a closer look at the distinctive truths in the New Testament, known as Paul’s doctrine (2 Tim. 1:13; 3:1013Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 1:13)
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, (2 Timothy 3:10)), we would have to say that there are many points that these preachers and teachers are not clear on. Besides not being clear as to the true nature, calling, and practice of the Church and prophetic truth, most denominational preachers do not understand: new birth, free-will, the quickening and sealing of the Spirit, eternal life, sonship, the old man and the new man, the baptism of the Spirit, the difference between sin and sins, the difference between purchase and redemption, the various aspects of sanctification, the difference between eternal and governmental forgiveness, many of the types in Scripture, etc. It is, admittedly, difficult to make an accurate list here because all Pastors and Ministers do not have the same level of understanding, and we do not want to stereotype.
Let us make ourselves perfectly clear here; these gifted men can most assuredly give a believer some helpful answers as to salvation and following the Lord, but when it comes to the distinctive tenets of Paul’s doctrine, it is not likely that we will get sound teaching as to those things in a church denomination. The more we understand the distinctive points and nuances of Paul’s doctrine, the clearer this will be.
Dispensational Truth(Truth concerning the various administrations of God’s stewardship of man, particularly that of Israel and the Church)
Will the preachers and teachers in the denominational churches teach us dispensational truth? The majority of the churches in Christendom today hold a covenantal view of interpreting Scripture (the view of the 15th century Reformers, called Covenant Theology), rather than a dispensational interpretation of Scripture. Since most churches do not hold dispensational truth, it is clear, that those in those churches would not be teaching it to their congregations.
Theology (Truth concerning the three Persons of the Godhead)
Thankfully, we can say that most Christian Ministers have their theology right—with perhaps the exception of the sinless humanity of Christ. But we must ask, “Do we really need to go to them to learn about the Persons of the Godhead?”
Practical Christian Living
We are thankful that most evangelical preachers and teachers are generally helpful in giving advice on a number of practical subjects as to Christian living. Their ministry as to cultivating personal Christian graces, financial matters, marriage and family issues, etc., are certainly not to be underestimated. But even in this, will they teach us to walk in separation from the world in practical matters? What would they teach in regard to participating in the world’s politics, entertainments, sports events, arts, music, and theatre, etc.? Would they give us sound, godly advice as to these things?
Let us say again, we are not trying to be offensive or critical in these remarks; it is a fact that much of the teaching in the denominational churches is not accurate, and some of it is plainly contrary to the truth of Scripture. The more we learn the truth, the clearer this will be to us. The problem is that most who would disagree with us don’t seem to have a solid understanding of the truth. When they listen to the Pastors and teachers from the churches, they don’t detect the error and think that it is all fine and good.
We realize that there will be people who are sensitive and defensive of the church denominations, who will say that we are being judgmental. As mentioned, it is certainly not our intention to do so, but to make our point, we have had to give our readers some specifics, and thus, expose ourselves to the possibility of being accused of being critical. Our point in all this is simply to show that it is not necessary to go to a church denomination to get the truth.
The Deposit of Truth Given to the Gathered Saints
The problem with many of us who are gathered to the Lord’s name is that we don’t realize how richly we have been blessed in the position that we are in ecclesiastically. God has identified with this position historically and has used those connected with it to recover much truth to the Church that was lost for over 1500 years. It used to be that those in the church denominations (150 years ago) would come to us to learn the truth; now we feel that we have to go to them to get fed! Isn’t this a little embarrassing? It reminds us of the children of Israel having to go down to the Philistines to get their farm implements sharpened (1 Sam. 13:19-2219Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears: 20But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock. 21Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads. 22So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found. (1 Samuel 13:19‑22)). We are not implying that our brethren in the church denominations are ungodly Philistines; we’re just saddened that the gathered saints think that they have to go to those for the truth who should be coming to them for it. If we have been given so much, why do we think that we need to go to the church denominations to get the truth?
The young man who was Elisha’s servant didn’t know what he had on his side. When he saw the Syrian army gathering around them, he thought that they were surely outnumbered and couldn’t match the Syrian forces. So, Elisha prayed, “LORD, I pray Thee, open his eyes, that he may see” (2 Kings 6:1717And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. (2 Kings 6:17)). The Lord answered Elisha’s prayer and “opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw” that the resources with them were superior to the Syrians. We think of this in connection with some of our younger brethren. They need to have their eyes opened to see what they have in being associated with the gathered saints. We are not implying that our fellow brethren in the church denominations are akin to the Syrian enemies of Israel, but rather, refer to this incident in regard to our eyes needing to be opened.
Without speaking proudly, we ask: “Where else could we go to get all the truth of God that was recovered to the Church in the 1800s—ecclesiastical, eschatological, dispensational, etc?” Even those groups that have gone off in division from the gathered saints—who generally have had more light than the denominational churches—have lost certain parts of the truth. Again, we are not trying to be critical; we are trying to open the eyes of our readers. It is true that every local assembly among those gathered to the Lord’s name might not have teachers who can delineate these things, but in the fellowship at large, there is a deposit of truth that is unparalleled. Our prayer is that the Lord will open our eyes to see this. It is not something to be proud of; it is something to be thankful for.
People often respond to this and say, “But no one knows all the truth!” Yes, that may be true when it comes to personal apprehension, but that is not what we are talking about. Our point is that there has been a deposit of truth committed to those gathered to the Lord’s name (recovered truths of Paul’s doctrine, prophetic truth, etc.), and this deposit is still among the gathered saints. Whether all connected with that position know of these things is another matter.
But this raises a searching question. If those in the church denominations came to us for teaching on these various major Bible themes, could we give it to them? Have we been diligent to learn the truth that is (or was) common among us? Herein lies the problem. It seems that many of us couldn’t give them the truth even though we have been blessed with so much of it!
The Danger of Imbibing Error
Another thing to consider is that in going to the church denominations to be fed, there is a risk of getting confused and even imbibing error. If we are not well instructed in the truth (which is understandable when we are young), we can, and most likely will, pick up something inadvertently that is erroneous. Scripture says, “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners” (1 Cor. 15:3333Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (1 Corinthians 15:33)). This was said to the Corinthians in the context of them having imbibed seriously wrong doctrine as to the resurrection. We must not be naïve and think that it can’t happen to us. We need to drink at the well of those “knowing of whom thou hast learned them” (2 Tim. 3:1414But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; (2 Timothy 3:14)).
Someone might ask, “What about reading and listening to the ministry from gifted men without going to the church denominations? Can we not take in some of their oral or written ministry?” We believe that it is not our place to legislate what those gathered to the Lord’s name do in this regard. There are things that can be helpful in books of ministry written by those who are not gathered to the Lord’s name, but we do need to be careful in what we read.
A principle that might guide us in this regard is found in Numbers 31:21-2421And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses; 22Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water. 24And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp. (Numbers 31:21‑24). “And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses; only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, everything that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water. And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.”
There were things that were valuable among those who were not with the children of Israel. The Israelites were allowed to take them into the camp, but they had to pass them through “the fire,” or in what could not go through the fire, through “the water.” Since fire speaks of judgment and water of cleansing, we are to learn from this that if we read things written by those among divided groups of brethren, or from those in a denominational position, we must pass judgment on the connection from which they have come, and thus, disassociate it from its source. What we are saying is that we need to be careful to disconnect the spiritual truths that we have gotten from the erroneous ecclesiastical position from which they have been in. If this is not done, that ministry could have the effect of drawing us into the place from where it has come. Those who indulge in ministry from church Pastors and Ministers, and then later end up in one of those denominations, show that they perhaps were reading that ministry without disconnecting it from its source. In the words of the type, they did not pass it through “the fire” and “the water.” Let us remember that there is no ministry in “the camp” (Heb. 13:1313Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (Hebrews 13:13)) that will lead a person out of the camp; the tendency is the opposite. This is why we say that a person has to be careful in this regard.
Joining in Service With Those in the Church Denominations
It might be asked, “Is there anything wrong with those gathered to the Lord’s name joining with those in the church denominations in gospel work?” This is another point in which we do not wish to legislate. Each person’s conscience must be left to act before God (Rom. 14:55One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)). Nevertheless, we will pass on a principle that may give some guiding light on this.
The Apostle Paul said, “It has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit, that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint-body, and joint partakers of His promise in Christ Jesus by the glad tidings [the gospel]” (Eph. 3:5-65Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Ephesians 3:5‑6)). The fact that he added, “By the glad tidings [the gospel],” shows that gospel truth and assembly truth are linked. In the gospel we present Christ the Saviour; in teaching the truth of the Church we present Christ the Center. Both are intimately connected. Therefore, all gospel work should be conducted with the assembly in view. God intends that when a person is saved, he would be found thereafter functioning in the assembly as a member of the body of Christ.
An Old Testament type illustrates this. The great stones that were brought for the purpose of building the temple (1 Kings 5) were not only cut out from the place where they were found, but they were also brought to the temple site and fitted into the house (1 Kings 6). To get the stones out of the pit would speak of gospel work. Note: it was not an end in itself. Similarly, the purpose of the gospel is to bring in the material that would compose the Church. The living stones that compose God’s house today have been saved for the purpose of functioning in His house for His glory. Later in the epistle to the Ephesians, Paul speaks of this connection again (chapter 4:11-16). The “evangelists” were to work with the “pastors and teachers” with “a view to the edifying of the body of Christ.” This shows that wanting souls to be saved without seeing them functioning in their place in the body in a local assembly is falling short of God’s purpose for them.
An intelligent, Spirit-led Christian will want to work in concert with God, in not only spreading the gospel, but also in directing all converts to Christ in the midst of an assembly gathered to His name. The problem here is that if someone from the denominations is involved in this work, he will quite logically direct the new converts to his church group, or to the church of the convert’s choice. Hence, the two servants, if they are true to their ecclesiological convictions, will be pulling in two different directions.
Scripture asks, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” (Amos 3:33Can two walk together, except they be agreed? (Amos 3:3)). The only way for such an endeavour to work is that someone will have to compromise. Since most of these efforts are put on by those from the church groups, someone gathered to the Lord’s name who wishes to join them will have to be the one who compromises. And this is understandable; after all, he or she is the one joining that work; they can’t expect the organizers to change their principles because he or she has joined them.
As a matter of conviction for our own feet in this exercise, for the reason mentioned above, we believe that we should conduct our own gospel efforts without having connections with those from the denominations. This is not because we don’t love them, or any such thing; it is to avoid the double standard that will inevitably result as to our difference in ecclesiology. We pray for every effort of those in the denominations in spreading the gospel, but we believe that we should leave them to conduct their own work.