Reading 3
Ques. Is this aspect of the Lord with the sword drawn a continuous one?
Yes, in Canaan.
Ques. Is He, then, always looked at as carrying on the warfare?
Yes, and if we have not Him, as well as God's armor, we shall not stand. Mark, the fighting is only when we get into Canaan, though the Amalekites are the same in principle.
Ques. At the restoration of the twelve tribes, will there be found any among them not true to the Lord?
No, " Thy people also shall be all righteous." There will be this difference, that the two tribes will be brought into the land as a whole, but in the case of the ten tribes, the rebels among them shall not enter the land.
Ques. Then whatever there may be of rebellion in the millennium, it will not be from the ten tribes?
No, it will not, i.e., not from among those brought in, but it might be from among those born afterward. Those who are spared, the third part, who pass through the fire, will be all righteous. There will be rebellion by the Jews, because they have rejected Christ, and will be under antichrist; but the ten tribes had nothing to do with Christ, nor will they have anything to do with antichrist.
Ques. But during the millennium, the whole twelve tribes will be as one people, and it is said of them, " Thy people also shall be all righteous," Isaiah 60:2121Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (Isaiah 60:21)? Is this true of the ten tribes?
It may be so, for the rebels from among them will have been purged out. In Isaiah, we find the two grounds of God's controversy with them, and their rejection. In chapters 40-48 there is the idolatry question, and then, from that on to the end of chapter 57, it is the rejection of Christ with a testimony of blessing at the end. " There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked," ends the section as to Christ. Chapter 60, where the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and so on, seems to be more general; the chapter relates to Jerusalem. I suppose that here, and in Ezekiel 20, Jerusalem is taken as a center, and then it includes all the land.
Ques. Circumcision as a rule was on the eighth day, and now in the land, they have got into their eighth day and there seems power with that, and then they go on?
Yes.
Ques. Is the general thought of Canaan that of the heavenly places?
Yes, I have no doubt of it.
Ques. Does the " reproach " refer to the bondage?
It is the whole thing, the bondage of the flesh-the body of the flesh. Satan is the head of the world, the essence of which is the flesh.
Ques. And circumcision is the putting off the body of the flesh?
Yes, in Colossians.
Ques. What is the difference between our circumcision in Christ, and Israel's future circumcision in the land?
I do not think they will be circumcised in our way at all; though they will get the fruit of Christ's resurrection, it will not be in a dead and risen way, but as alive here on the earth.
Ques. The sure mercies of David, is that Israel's hope founded on resurrection?
A dead David can give them nothing; it is really Christ.
Ques. Does not the apostle give us the moral power of circumcision in the end of Rom. 2?
Yes, it is not outward in the flesh.
Ques. " Putting off of the body of the flesh," is that for us, or by us?
It is for us in one sense, but it is realized by faith. You must ask J.B.S.
What do you say to that, J.B.S.?
J.B.S. It cannot be realized at all until you have got a heavenly footing.
Ques. Is not circumcision in Romans more what is for us, because it is in heart and spirit?
Yes. I was thinking of the " putting off " in Colossians.
Ques. "Without hands "?
Yes, it is not the mere Jewish thing. Colossians brings in faith, too, " faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." In Colossians it is, I think, more as to standing. Colossians shows two distinct things, a living man that has died, and a dead man that is raised-not a living man that is raised. The fact is of course seen in Christ. But resurrection, or rather, quickening, is not connected with dying and rising, the quickened person is the person who was dead; but in the other case, he has to die to the whole condition and rise again, or else he would be out and out dead; and that carries a great deal with it. But that is the fact as to Scripture. But I wanted to know, J.B.S., what you were saying about being past Jordan?
J.B.S. A soul that has passed Rom. 7 cannot happily go out to the world, and yet there is no notion of being done with the world. In Rom. 6, it is only sin and sins, it is not a question of the world at all.
That is perfectly true. Rom. 6 only deals subjectively with state, but there being no resurrection there, I have not got into the new concern at all.
J.B.S. If a man gets into the new thing, it is much more difficult for him to give up prospects than possessions.
Because possessions never satisfy?
J.B.S. Plenty have boldness to enter in, in Hebrews, but they have not closed the door on the world.
Rom. 6 deals only with myself, for I believe Romans means to keep us down here in this world, not to have our hearts in it, but still down here. It does look at us as " in Christ," but there that has nothing to do with heaven. All we find in Romans by being in Christ is, " no condemnation."
Ques. Then the thought of being in Christ, is not Christ in heaven, but only in Christ as in headship of a new race?
Yes.
J.B.S. A person will often say, 'I stick only to Christ,' but it is not Christ in heaven that they have.
Colossians does not, I think, take us into heaven, except in hope, only that we have life there, and our life is hid with Christ in God. The moment we are in heavenly places, the question is raised as to ‘for' or ‘against,' and it is a drawn sword; it may be very trying and painful, but directly we come up to a certain point, there arises opposition, ‘you must not touch that ground.' It is, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?” Directly we come to a rejected Christ, it is "with" or, "against."
Ques. The failure of Moses to circumcise his child before going into Pharaoh's presence—what would that show?
That I cannot go and deal with the deliverance of God's people out of the world, if I have not accepted death for myself to start with. It was before the law, and not by it, that they had circumcision, and where there is the promise of grace and blessing, this we can only receive through death and circumcision.
Ques. We must be there and know where we are, otherwise there can be no conflict with the people that are there?
I believe that we may get flesh tested usefully, and we learn it by experience, though that is not reckoning ourselves dead. But when we have passed over and reached the heavenly places, that is to say, when we are sitting there in Christ, as in Ephesians, then, and then only, do we get the armor. It is a totally distinct tiling; it is not the Red Sea, nor the wilderness, nor anything of that kind, though in one sense we are always in the latter, but, looked at as a distinction of condition, we are past it. It is not a man dying who was once alive in sin, " in the which ye also walked sometime, when ye lived in them "; but it is, " when we were dead in sins." Ephesians begins with a Christ raised out from among the dead and not known upon earth at all, and that is why the apostle says that he does not know Christ after the flesh, even though he had known Him thus. We have the full purpose of God in Ephesians, but when we come to fact, there is only one fact, and that is that Christ, when dead, was raised and set at God's right hand. We do not find in Ephesians a living Christ in the world. Death annulled the whole previous existence and I do not say, I must die to all this, but, dead, I have been quickened. And as to my place, I have a place in heaven where the devil cannot come, though as a general thought it is the very place where the devil is, and in that governmental heavenly place, there he is, and so I have to put on my armor and fight. But to quicken a dead man is a distinct thing from making a living man die. Colossians may show us that aspect of Christ during' the forty days before His ascension, though it gives more-the life hid with Christ in God. It gives us, " risen with him," and Christ is our life, but death has closed the world. In Himself, Christ was always a heavenly Person, but He was out of heaven and death had come in, and if I try to go back, I cannot go beyond death. Romans carefully avoids resurrection; it says, " We shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." And " alive," also, we have there. This is important for us, for as a matter of fact we are not looked at as risen in Romans: I reckon myself dead, but not risen.
Ques. Does not Colossians, then, enter into the land at all?
No. We do not find even the rapture in Colossians; " your life is hid," and " ye are dead," that is settled; and we do not belong to this world. I am not going to have my heart developed here, on the contrary, my hope is laid up there; and when Christ shall appear, I shall have the glory. I may have eaten the specimen grapes of Eshcol, and pomegranates, and found them very good, but if we are risen with Christ, it does not say, ye have entered in,' but, " seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth," for there is the Head. And it argues, " If ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [principles] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances." That is Puseyism and all such things as people in the flesh bowing their heads like bulrushes, etc.
Ques. Is that the reason we have not the devil in Colossians?
Nor have we the Holy Ghost. But our affections are to be set there in heaven; our connections are all there, and our life is there, though we have not yet entered in ourselves.
Ques. Rom. 6 seems to carry us to another place?
It is subjective only as to what we are. We do find there, " crucified with him," and that I am to reckon myself to be dead, and alive to God, but not the new place.
That is Paul's specific doctrine; it is Romans, and in measure Colossians, but not Ephesians. Romans gives us the fundamental condition of a soul with God-' I am saved absolutely '-but not a trace of the mystery.
Ques. And I cannot live as I like?
No, not if you are dead. In 2 Timothy it is, " live with him " and " reign with him," but there is no entrance into heaven.
Ques. What is " the power of his resurrection " in Philippians?
There it is, first, " that I may be found in him," i.e., I want to know my righteousness with God, and next, that I may act and walk through this world in the power of resurrection which makes death and all things else nothing to me.
Ques. What is, " we are the circumcision "?
Dead to sin, morally.
Ques. Does the drawn sword mean the word of God? Well, it is by the word, but the point here is that the moment we reach the heavenly places we must fight.
Ques. " Mortify therefore," is that Gilgal?
Yes.
Ques. Could anyone get to Gilgal without being in the land?
No.
Ques. If a Christian is walking badly, you would not say to him, " put off "?
No, we never find in Scripture, ‘you must put off,' or ‘you must die to sin,' though I have to live as a risen man down here. Let us not confuse "mortify" with the "sword drawn." When we draw the sword, we take Ephesian ground, and we must not put Ephesians in between Col. 2 and 3.
Mortify! Do I mortify anything in heaven? No; in Colossians we are on earth, not in heaven, and we mortify “members" on earth.
Ques. But is not Josh. 5 to prepare us to come out in chapter 6?
Quite so.
And then we wrestle, not like Joshua, with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers in the heavenly places; there only is it that we get into this kind of warfare. In Colossians, I have to mortify my members as the fullest development of divine life.
Ques. But if I am not mortifying my members down here, can I, practically, fight in the heavenly places?
No, you will not be in a condition to fight.
Ques. Must a soul go through the different steps in Romans, Colossians, and Ephesians?
Yes, I believe so, but in Ephesians I learn better than ever what Romans is.
Ques. The difficulty is that Gilgal is in the land?
Though we do not get the Holy Ghost in Colossians, and we cannot do anything without having the Holy Ghost, yet that is not what is unfolded in this epistle. We learn more by putting things together as Scripture gives them than by any arranging of them ourselves, for we are such poor finite creatures. Only we cannot put all truths together. Are you in the heavenlies or on earth? You say, 'in heavenly places, and sitting there'; then I ask, why have you got such a dreadful cold in your head? People do not have colds in heavenly places. Christians are viewed both as in the heavenlies and on earth, but we cannot look at them in both places at the same instant. Our faith is tested and exercised as to how far we are living there, when we are not there. In Ephesians, we have the whole thing complete, as it is in God's counsels.
Ques. Can one be over Jordan without being in heavenly places?
You mean, are we in Colossians or in Ephesians, but that is putting things together which Scripture keeps distinct.
Ques. Why have we the warnings against sin in Ephesians?
Because nothing is so opposite to sin as sitting in the heavenly places. Absolute contrast is what characterizes Ephesians, the strongest possible contrasts will be found there. It is not so in Colossians, because there we have life and that life largely developed, and the Holy Ghost not alluded to. Ephesians opens with God's sovereignty, God's counsels, and it has nothing to do with the world. Suppose God came and chose us out of London now, it would be just as absolute sovereignty as if it were before the world was. But it is " that we should be holy and without blame before him in love," that is God's nature; and we are in His presence with His nature so that we should enjoy Him perfectly. Moreover, He must have sons there; He would have, not holy servants merely, but sons. That is what Christ was, holy, blameless; and He was a Son, and that is just what God counsels for us. Let us then take care that the flesh, which is still in us, does not show itself. But in Colossians it is not that; there we are " renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him," but in Ephesians, the new man after God " is created in righteousness and true holiness." In Colossians, we are not brought into the heavenly places completely, but it is in knowledge. Union, in a certain sense, is assumed in Colossians. I am not a Christian at all if I have not the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Ghost acts in me to make me know the perfectness of what Christ has done.
And then we have to contend with Satan's power in that which God has given to us, and so the sword comes in. As to the warfare, it is given more in detail in Ephesians. It is not lusts merely that Ephesians touches upon; when it comes to lusts, if we have not Christ we are captive in Egypt. But in Ephesians Paul first shows where we are according to God's purpose, and then, as a supplementary thing, he speaks of Christ's love to the Church which He will present to Himself in glory and of the warfare we must wage until we get to that place.
Ques. Does the prayer in chapter 1 refer to our standing, and that of chapter 3 more to our state?
The first prayer is to God, and the second is to the Father. Just as we have, "holy and without blame" before God, and, "predestinated as unto the adoption " as with the Father. But the prayer in chapter 1 is not that they should obtain anything, but that, the eyes of their understanding being enlightened, they might know and realize the hope of God's calling as an object before them. Then the other part of the prayer is that they might know the same power that had raised Christ from among the dead, and so on. In chapter 3 we have, not exactly God's mind, but Paul's dispensation of it, and he prays, not that they may see the things, but that, as a fact, they may be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, and also that they may realize His presence until they are actually sitting with Him. Until then, Christ is the center who fills all things. And as He dwells in my heart, I realize that I too am in the center of it all. The apostle prays that we may know the breadth, and length, and depth, and height. But besides that, we are at home in it all as we know His love that passeth knowledge. In the first prayer, Christ is seen raised up as Man; in the second, He is dwelling in our hearts by faith; then again, He is seen as filling all in all—"He... ascended... that he might fill all things"—but He dwells in us; and He is looking that this may be realized by us. But if we get into these heavenly places, we must have a sword.
Ques. Is “the LORD'S host" Israel?
Yes, Israel, not angels.
Ques. "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot "?
That is another important principle. God is as holy in warfare as He is in redemption. His holiness was proved on the cross: "It became him,... in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings "; it became God to do so. And He is just as holy in the warfare. Joshua has here to take off his shoe just as Moses had to do at the bush. We do have the Lord with us, but to have Him we must be holy.
Ques. Is the Angel, then, Jehovah?
Always.
Ques. Is this the fulfillment of God's promise in Ex. 23? Yes, only it is fuller still.
Ques. What answers now to the Captain of the Lord's host?
Christ in the power of the Spirit. It is not like Moses, a kingly governor under the law. Christ has gone down below the creature, i.e., into death and the grave, and He has gone up far above all things. And then He gives. All our gifts come from His taking such a place. Ministry is founded on Christ having overcome Satan, and Christ filling all things. These two things are the foundations of ministry. He led captivity captive, and He gave gifts. The power of evil has been beaten, and the whole scene is filled with the glory of Christ. This makes ministry such a wonderful thing. Christ has destroyed Satan's power at the cross, and He has given gifts to those He has delivered out of his captivity. He has given to us to overcome him, too. Having gone into the lower parts of the earth, and having been carried far above all heavens, He fills all things, and He gives gifts. We see thus that everything in our service must be suitable to the holiness of God or it will be bad service.
Ques. You would not confine conflict to ministry?
No; giving a cup of cold water is ministry. In this country, we know very little of conflict in an outward way; though it is found in families, if not in open persecution.
Ques. Would you say that the dispensation of the present time is that of the power of the Spirit of God?
Yes, that is what it is.
That which characterizes our condition down here is that Satan is here, but the presence of the Holy Ghost makes me the servant, not exactly of the Holy Ghost, but of Christ, and the distribution of the gifts makes anyone a servant of Christ in that particular gift. On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Ghost came to witness that in consequence of redemption man in Christ has gone into the glory of God. Nowadays, men look for religious liberty, but in the time of the Acts they were thankful to suffer shame for His name's sake. The world is always stronger on its own ground than Christians are; when Moses killed the Egyptian, he ran away from Pharaoh.
Ques. A great deal of this conflict is carried on now on our knees, is it not?
I believe it is. Prayer is before the ministry of the word. And before ever they went into conflict, they ate the old corn of the land.
Ques. Has this anything to do with preaching the gospel?
When I meet sinners, I find man is upon a different ground altogether; and brethren have to watch about this, for they are apt to bring in heavenly things to people who need to know that they are guilty sinners. But if I deal with a sinner, I deal with him on that ground alone, i.e., as a responsible man; and I ask him, has not your conscience condemned you for that? Do you love your neighbor as yourself? Were you as sorry when your neighbor lost his fortune, as when you lost your own? The evangelist, as such, has nothing to do with heavenly places; an evangelist is blessed just as he deals with a man plainly on the ground of his responsibility-you have killed the Prince of Life. But in Joshua I have a man on totally different ground. Still, in either case, whether teaching or evangelizing, the word of God is the power.
Ques. But now people know so much of the word of God, it is familiar to them?
Yes, there are plenty of hindrances. I remember a brother speaking to a fellow-traveler, who answered him, ' Oh, I am quite sure that the pure in heart will see God.' Well, he replied, do you think you are pure enough in heart to see God? Oh, you are beginning to be personal,' said he.
The tendency of the heavenly things, when we are full of them, is to take our minds away from the desperate necessities of sinners. All the preachings in Scripture are uncommonly personal. We must, of 'course, preach the grace that saves. But when we are in Ephesians I say good-bye to evangelizing. If I were to go to heathen, I could tell them that God's Son has come into this world, and He has died, and He has been raised again; but if I were to say that in any of the so-called churches, they would reply, We all believe that, and have done so a long while since,' for all around us there is a popular knowledge of the facts of the gospel. But I preach to people that they are guilty, and not that they are lost. ‘Lost,' is immensely important in teaching, but if we go and preach that, a man may say, ‘lost! then there is an end of it.' When I look at the prodigal, and at his conduct in leaving his father's house, going away, doing his own will, and getting into such wretchedness and ruin-all is wrong, but there is nothing in that about his being dead in trespasses and sins. The jailer had the conviction that he needed to be saved; he knew that he was lost, in that sense, for God had dealt with his conscience. If I were to say to men, ‘you are poor lost sinners,' they would know I meant that they will never be right with God if they do not repent, and so on.
Ques. Would you preach to a sinner that he is lost on account of his guilt, rather than for his nature?
Yes, just so. It is useful to show sinners the root, if we put it straight before them, but not by saying, ' you have no power and you cannot come.' When I was converted, the quarrel about Calvinism was pretty strong, but I said to myself, How came I to be brought out, and all my companions left where they were? '
Ques. Where should the evangelist lead the sinner?
I should say he should lead him to God. It is true I am a member of Christ's body, but if I preach as an evangelist, I act in my gift, and I do not talk to a sinner about the one body; I look for the state of the soul I am speaking to; if he is converted but wants peace, I speak of that, and God gives wisdom in that way. If we only act in dependence, a person will be brought to those who will bring the thing home to him. At first there was a plain center to take souls to, but now it is not so. But if all were in order, one could not separate the two things.
Ques. Could a sinner be convicted of guilt apart from the actual word?
No, though that depends a little on what you mean by the word.
Ques. Could one be convicted by means of a dream?
Yes, he could. Probably a third of the poor people of England are converted through dreams. God in His mercy has spread a kind of general knowledge about heaven, and about hell, and about Christ, and this He uses in His own way; but a man is not converted by anything that is not of God, and all that we have of God is in the word. And the things that are in the word we must have, or it is not of God at all. Only, if people lean on their dreams they never get on. A man in Yorkshire went to a wake to play skittles and drink and all that kind of thing; and he said to himself, ' I am going to hell, and all the people here are going to hell as fast as ever they can.' His wife came to look for him, and he went off with her, and for a whole fortnight he was in perfect misery, but afterward he said, I went to God, and God sent me to Christ, and I got quite happy.' The clergyman came and asked him why he went about to hear all sorts of people, telling him he ought to listen only to a regularly ordained man. ‘Well,' said he, ‘that is just what I have done; I went to Christ, and is not He a regularly ordained man?' One left the church not long ago who told me he was converted by preaching one of his own sermons in a dream.
Well now, God's power was the whole thing; they might blow the ram's horns, but the walls fell down of God and Rahab was saved. Then a curse was put upon that which God had rejected and judged, and Jericho was not to be rebuilt. It was simply divine power which knocked all down. This is an immense principle.
Next, Achan takes of the accursed thing, and inasmuch as the Angel of His presence was as holy in warfare as in redemption, if they did anything inconsistent with that, the Lord would not go out with them. The mischief was that success had given them confidence, and this is always a snare; they say, Ai is a little city, it is not worth while for all of us to go up, a few is enough. And they are beaten.
Ques. What does the going round Jericho signify, as regards the character of testimony for the present day?
It is merely testimony, and that God will act; they do not touch anything, but the blowing of the trumpets brings God in, and He does the work. Now we have God's power, but if there is anything unsuited to God, He will not go out with us. After such a failure, there was, as there always is, a great deal more trouble than ever. All the people have to go up, an ambush has to be laid, and it is a regular business to overcome Ai.
If we use means and depend on them, we are not trusting God's power.
Ques. Why did Joshua stretch out his hand?
Ques. And the hands of Moses were held up in Ex. 17?
All that we may see is man's activity, but the real work is carried on by God. Down in the plain, Moses had to say to Israel, "Ye have been rebellious against the Lox]) from the day that I knew you," but, on the other hand, Balaam says of them, speaking for God, "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel."
Ques. Do we learn anything from Joshua's hand not getting weary as Moses' did?
It may be that Aaron and Hur, i.e., intercession and purity, kept God in blessing; Joshua represented the Lord Himself, there was therefore no failure, he kept his hand outstretched in God's power.
Ques. Where are we to draw the line in the use of means?
Where the Lord draws it. I went about for years with P.H., and he printed handbills, but I never did. I would rather have five people in earnest than five hundred gathered out of curiosity. God may gather people either way, for He is sovereign. If we have five people, and look to the Lord and trust Him, these may all be evangelists next week. I dread getting merely into human means. And I do not want fanaticism either, because then you might say, ' hold your tongue entirely, and the Lord can do what He pleases.'
Ques. If brethren have a place in a town, would you take another room to get people?
Some people like to be out and I like to be in. Leave liberty in these things; for myself, I like to identify the work with the meeting. I would rather have it connected with the center; there is such a thing as a sound mind in judgment under God, but that is a very different thing from using weapons of warfare that are carnal. If Christ is our object, God will guide us.
Well, Ai is a very solemn lesson for us, and we have to learn it with God, so as to get back to the point where we started wrong. Remember, there is no difference between little and great with God. He takes care of a sparrow that falls, and He will burn up the earth. The question is as to what is right in His sight. So, at Ai, it was not merely a matter of power, but of judging evil. And where evil is not judged God will not use power. Joshua was terrified with the adversaries, but the Lord's answer to him was very simple, "Wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?”
Ques. Ought not Joshua to have been conscious that Achan had sinned?
They could not have told perhaps that it was Achan, but if they had consulted God, He might have refused to answer, just as with Saul when in His own way He made them find out that Jonathan had tasted the honey. So if an assembly is spiritual, they will be conscious of anything that is grieving to the Spirit. And if they are not, this will not be the case, for they are then morally at the level of the sin committed. But if spiritually minded, they will be sensible of something wrong, and they will be looking to the Lord to bring the thing out.
Ques. Then does individual sin involve the whole assembly?
Where it is such that the assembly ought to take notice of it. But I believe things are more difficult to trace now because of the confusion. Still, where there is fidelity, there is power. If we hear that twenty-five Christians are put on the top of a rock to be dashed down, and only one of them gives way, but the remaining twenty-four are dashed down, we shall get the blessing of it; there cannot be power in any one place without its telling on those in other places.
Ques. Suppose the case of an assembly where not positive sin but weakness is manifested, and not going on with God, what is to be done?
Pastoral care must come in, and they must humble themselves before God.
Ques. Is it right to confine humiliation to a few gathered together?
If it is only they who have it in their hearts.
Ques. Rather than involve the whole assembly?
Some may not feel the condition, but others do; though it is very happy if all in the assembly can.
Ques. But should they not all ask for light on the matter? If they all agree, let them ask, but if they cannot agree, they cannot all ask.
Ques. How far should an assembly be humbled about evil in a person who has left it?
Until he has left, they are more or less concerned in it, and we ought to feel as Christ feels about evil.
Ques. But if a person has deliberately gone out, having done something very bad, what should the assembly do? They should say so; he has gone out under a charge of sin and he cannot come back until he gets leave to come back. Ques. But if it is a known flagrant sin?
Very well, if a man commit forgery, and he goes out and says to the world, I have left those people, his flagrant sin being known, the assembly can say, he is gone away from us until he is permitted to come back.
Ques. Ought they not formally to put him away?
It says, " Put away from among yourselves," but if you say he has gone, he is not among yourselves. You can say sometimes that a person has withdrawn and cannot come back. The action of the assembly cannot take place after he has gone. I should say, he has left under such a charge and cannot come back until it is cleared up. Remember, ‘putting out' is a judicial thing. And there is another thing, I turn away from certain persons.
Ques. If you act and put any oft, you bind on them their sins, but if they left, and you close the door, is that binding their sins upon them?
So far it is.
Ques. If one leave, and it is found that he held bad doctrine, is the assembly involved in that doctrine?
If he held it while inside, they are concerned in it.
Ques. Ought the assembly to act in such a case and take any step about it?
Yes.
Ques. But there is difference between actual public withdrawal, and a person saying, ' I will not break bread with you'?
Well, you must try and ascertain the true state of the case.
Ques. But it is most important to make the act of breaking bread the public expression of fellowship?
Yes, it is. But if one be absent, I must see if it be carelessness, or if it be deliberate; if it be that continued, he must be put out.
Ques. But there is no thought in Scripture of anyone withdrawing?
Yes there is, there is apostasy.
Ques. But would real love to the brethren allow [this]?
If I love the children for the Father's sake, I do not go with them in things they may do against the Father.
Ques. When sin has come in anywhere, how far does responsibility rest on others around to help an assembly?
If they seek it, the Lord will show how, the circumstances vary so greatly.
Ques. If you felt that the meeting had really gone wrong, could you stay in it?
I would never leave an assembly as such, unless I could say when I had left, that it was not God's assembly at all. But Paul stayed away. from Corinth, though he never actually broke with Corinth.
Ques. But he sent Timothy?
Yes, with a letter to recall them to obedience.
Ques. Suppose I go to a fresh place where there is a meeting, and as soon as I get there, I begin to do mischief and to use my gift for the purpose of gathering people to my ministry; and then, when I am asked to meet others, I refuse; what is to be done?
The great thing is to arouse the conscience of an assembly, and not to settle things for them. I could say to such an one, you are causing divisions, and I shall give you the cold shoulder,' as they say, and I should go on myself with those who are going on rightly.
Ques. And if he leave the meeting?
That is another thing, as we have seen already. But let
patience have her perfect work, and that is very hard work sometimes. 'Unanimity' and 'voices,' I know nothing about. 'Unanimity' is merely a human judgment.
Ques. Suppose one had gone along with the man at Corinth?
Paul would have dealt with him as with the man in his wickedness. Only, when cases are not clear, you must wait on the Lord.
Ques. What is the Scripture for barring the door?
" Put away from among yourselves "; only, if he has gone out, you cannot put out one who is out, but the one Scripture applies to the two cases.
Then comes Gibeon; here it was a sin which remained among them. Israel took of their victuals; that was a human estimate of the thing.
Ques. Would this be one of the wiles of the devil?
Yes, it might seem a very nice thing to get a great and powerful city to help them, but it was using human means.
Ques. But the Gibeonites were wise in their way?
Yes; " the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."